How Automated Freight Insurance is Transforming Logistics | Episode 62

Hey everybody, it's Patrick Escolas with another episode of Banyan Technology's Tire Tracks podcast. Today, I have a very special guest. I always have a special guest, but today I've got Michael Wilson, the Shippers' Interest Cargo Program Leader for North America. And I'll let him explain what that is. But we've got Michael Wilson in Marsh here. Hey, Mike. How are you doing?

I'm good. Thanks for having me, Patrick. How are you?

I'm great. So, before we get too deep into it, we'll call out a few of the elephants in the room here. Yes, we both have amazing hair. And yes, your style is fantastic.

Exactly.

Yeah. So, we'll go quickly into did you make a choice at a certain age or was it something that you pushed off as long as you could? How did you come to have a beautiful bald head like you have?

Actually, it was an early decision, right? In high school, I did all the crazy, the Cameo, the Gumby, all those big haircuts. And then once I went bald, it was beautiful. Stuck with that. So much easier. Wake up, it's done. Go to bed, it's done.

Save a lot on shampoo. No, I knew for my 11th birthday, it was told to me from the prophecy, a.k.a. my father, that this is it. Don't mess around with it. Just shave it off when it's time. I was wondering if you got a talking to from someone as well. Like, "Hey, man, stop fooling yourself."

No talking to, but I just came to that realization on my own.

It's better than going the Boozer or the LeBron route. That's for sure. No. Into a serious nature. So, let's start with the fact that Shippers' Interest Cargo program, leader in North America. That's a mouthful. What is that? What do you do there? And how did you get there? Was insurance and logistics always a match made in heaven, or did you start on one side of the road and decided to meet in the middle? How did you get here?

All right. So, now we're going to go back. So, now I'm going to age myself a little bit. Been doing insurance probably roughly 27, 28 years. When I first started was in the mail room. Got promoted, and one of my promotions was to become an assistant to the transportation group. I handled shipping, cargo, and all that.

Then I moved to a different company and start working on program. I had that transportation background dealing with programs, but I was dealing with property casualty for different lines, churches, musicians, a whole bunch of – the whole wide variety.

That gets interesting.

Exactly. And then 18 years ago, my manager at the time needed someone who thought programs – because thinking programs and thinking on an individual account is different.

Big picture versus small picture, I would assume?

Exactly. And just the way you handle a client. Because when you're dealing with a program, it's multiple clients with different – they don't necessarily have the same goals. They have the same –

It's broader bullet points and policy kind of parameters, but not necessarily the exact policy that they're in. Okay.

Someone might care for the coverage, and someone cares more about the price. You have to kind of mix it together to make them both happy, right? Because of that background and having the earlier transportation, even though this was marine with some transportation, my manager thought he could teach me the transportation marine cargo side, but I could help with the program growth.

I came in with us having a couple programs. And 18 years later, we have a lot more programs. And from that, I have grown being with the company for a while, creating a lot of programs. Growing the few programs we had 18 years ago and have continued with. And from that, became the program leader.

That's right. And so where does Marsh fit into all of this? Is this someone that found you halfway through this game in the program? They're the ones that said, "Hey, Mike, we need you for the program." Where does Marsh come from? And is this something they've always done within the logistics and shipper space, or is this a newer pivot?

Marsh, being one of the oldest and biggest, I knew of them. And my earlier one, that's always been one of the pinnacle. I started off at Little Brokers. I actually did work at one of our leading competitors before coming over. And then a colleague of mine at the previous bot went to Marsh first and said, "Hey, Marsh is great. Come join." And I came, applied for a different role, but they liked me. I just didn't fit that role.

Yea. They're like, "We like that guy. We'll fit him in somewhere."

Exactly. So then my managers liked my resume. I had glowing recommendations from HR, and the other manager contact me. Me and him connected. And 18 years later, I'm on a podcast with you.

Hey. And that's the climax. That's it. That's the highest peak. That's what I tell my wife every day. No. Marsh has been around for a long time. What's allowed them to be around for a long time? And what differentiates them from any other insurance? Before we get into freight-specific, just from the name itself and the company itself, why Marsh? Why are they big? And why should somebody use or know them?

One of the things kind of what my group is, is forward thinking. Looking for solutions where others may have given up. One of the things that my then manager that has always been really good at is trying to see the future and try to get ahead of the curve, right? You don't want to follow, you want to be the leader and develop the solutions that our clients are going to need, right? You see what's going on in the world, whether it's the tariffs now or the change to automation with transportation, just all those types of things that we know will come around. Getting ahead, talking with underwriters, putting things in place. We have a program called Cargo Cover that's been in existence for 26 years. It's an online platform. It was one of the first, and it's been going for 26 years.

Never been updated since 26 years ago. Still running –

Exactly. That as well. Actually, we are getting an update in June. That's actually shocking.

That was a joke. I didn't mean to hit a source spot there.

You are 100% right. Well, there have been faceless. But actually, this one's going to be a bit more substantial, which will help our other programs, which is the one that is connected with Banyan. The operation, the look, the feel will be smoother and better. But that's what we've done in the sense. And we're trying to partner, like how we partner with Banyan, with good partners that will help us reach the next level and bring with them what they want to and reach their level.

Again, kind of thinking big picture like a program. This partner might want this, but this partner might want this. So, I got to make sure you're both happy that we both all reach –

The right options for both, and everybody's happy. Yeah. Now let me bring this to freight for a second. Now, one of the things that I've run into, this is on the TMS side, account management side, is that a lot of shippers have the idea that their freight is insured already. Whether that's because they think that the carrier just is insured, or they said how much the shipment is worth in value just through the TMS, and nothing else. What would you say to someone coming in with that assumption?

[I would say you're not. And I understand why you think you are. Because in some cases, we say to the carrier, "You're insured, right?" And they'll go, "Yep." So that means I'm insured.

Right. Yeah. That's all she wrote, right? End of podcast. All right. Yeah.

There's this wonderful commercial I love, the Discover Card. And a guy has a frog in his hand, and he's going, "You guys sell frog insurance." And the guy's like, "Yeah, fraud insurance." "No. Frog, right?" "Yeah, fraud." "Yeah, frog." And they're both thinking, "We're talking the same language," but they're not. And that's the same thing. Does a carrier have a level of insurance? Yes. Is it the right insurance? No. It's liability, which is third-party. You have to prove their fault. You have to go through all they have these limitations, right?

And part of the problem is think of your cell phone. When you open up a new app, you're like, "Oh, I love this new app. My friend told me about it." You have all these terms and conditions. Who reads it? No one. Go all the way to the bottom, hit accept, but you don't know what that app's saying. It's saying, "Oh, I can send your personal details to a third party and sell it." You've just agreed. You don't want that, but you've agreed to it. And it's the same thing with dealing with the carrier. They've said, "Yes, we have insurance, but we have to be proved negligent, and your payment is 50 cents per pound, and that weighs 5 lbs. You're going to get not what you paid."

Tell me, in a in a real in a real situation, what does that mean? If that's all I'm counting on, and something happens, what's going to happen? Does that mean carriers say, "Hey, by the way, are they going to give me the heads up? Is their insurance –" how does that look if I'm not using someone like Marsh and I'm just assuming the carrier's got me covered?

Yeah. No. It turns nine times, 9.9 times out of 10, very unhappy customer because the settlement is going to be way less if they do get, if they're able to prove. You also have shorter windows to file claims and to notify the carriers. And again, it is all listed. You just have to go through and read it all, right? They're not hiding it by any means. It's just you have to know this carrier's timeline, this carrier's timeline, this liability, sending this type of goods will get –

Because, generally, the carrier is not going to hold your hand through that process.

Correct. It's too much, too, to do it. Right. And that's why –

Right. They're a carrier. They got trucks moving and loads being shipped. They probably have very limited people that are on the claim side at all.

Correct.

And as you talk about this, big picture and going for the programs, is this always been a gap in freight, or is this something that's more come to the surface as we look at COVID as a lens that has really magnified either problems or pieces within logistics that need to be done differently? Is that one of these, or is this just something that's always been out there, but it's finally coming to the front of the inbox?

Kind of what you said. It has always been out there, but COVID has shone the light on it and allowed people – because we had to do things differently, being able to do it through digital means, being able to provide the insurance in this manner has opened up people's eyes to going, "Wait. Why do you need that?" "Well, because of this." "Well, wait." And then that's opened the doors and floodgates to, "Okay, we need this type of product. How can we get it, and how can we do it efficiently?" Right? Which is it's a great partnership with Banyan.

And with that is the big T word is in tariffs here. Is that going to be more important because you're paying $300 for something that used to pay $100 as far as the goods, and it's worth more than it used to be? Or is it just nature of the beast that's important regardless?

It's important regardless. Because think about it. If I buy my laptop, whether I paid a thousand or 13, I want my thousand or 13, right? Because I'm paying the insurance on it for a thousand or 13. It's damaged. It's lost by the carrier. I need that laptop, whether it's for school, work, or whatnot. It's regardless of the tariff itself.

It's just you don't – if you were handling things self-insuring, yes, the tariffs are going to more so affect you because now it is going to cost you way more. But always insurance. That's why I never want to say insurance is recession-proof. But that's why it's one of those industries that can survive a recession because you always need insurance.

Yeah. No. And I guess the question would be because it does sound like much like alcohol and food. Insurance is recession-proof. But is there a time when someone wouldn't need to go outside for insurance? And whatever the carriers got is fine? Or is it really just you're still rolling the dice? Talk to me. What's a good fit for someone to go talk to you or someone at Marsh, versus you're okay with what the carrier covers?

I would always recommend insurance because it's like – I'm just trying to find an analogy. I normally always use sports analogies. But it's just –

That's fine. I understand sports.

Yeah, that's my go-to, right? It's like having always a number one draft pick ready to go. Can the ninth person in the bench get you a hit or get you a bucket? Of course it can. But what's going to be the better odds? Right? You can look at it, and if your goods fall within the weight and the limit of liability, and you can get close to what you need, then of course. Or if you contracted it and you can get what you need, then of course, go.

But otherwise – and there will be cost in that. It just might not be deemed an insurance cost. It'd just be more freight cost or something. You're not getting anything for free. And that's what people need to understand. This insurance was free. Well, why is it free? Aren't normal the best things? Right? You have to question that and go, "Do I want the number one or the number nine, and move accordingly?" If you picked the wrong – pick the nine.

That's a good analogy, that it's either are you putting the best foot forward or are you just hoping for the best between that. Within this, and because I'm talking from a Banyan and a TMS background, is this something that Marsh only will cover certain modes, or certain lanes, or certain pieces? Or is this something where doesn't matter what I'm moving, I should be interested. And if not just Marsh, just insurance in general. Just so we're not making too much of a commercial. But just in case you're listening, use Marsh and use Banyan.

Yeah. But just from a general perspective, is there a mode that's highlighted on this? Whether it's full truckload, or like you were saying, marine before. But that's not as important to most of my Banyan users. They're out there. Don't get me wrong. Or is it LTL specific? Or is parcel not worth it because it's too small? What would you say to someone asking those questions across the table from you?

From a Marsh-Banyan perspective, I would say we could pretty much do anything. There are a couple commodities that we can't or we can. It's just we have to do it outside. There's a process we can get into that.

Okay. No, I immediately want to know what commodities those are, because I feel like they're going to be unique. At least name one for me that's interesting.

At least name one. Pharmaceuticals to a point.

You're not going to ensure the oxycodone going across the state lines? That makes sense. Okay.

Firearms, right?

Oh, man. You mean Nicholas Cage from Lord of War isn't using you guys? Is that what you're telling me?

There are – and then that's where I was going next. We, as an industry, though, can do those things. Again, going back to programs, a particular program creates the box.

You don't want to hold the rest of the program hostage to those restrictions or those premiums that somebody doing high-end controlled pharmaceuticals or firearms would be dealing with the guy who's putting cardboard trading cards across them. Okay. Okay.

Exactly. Exactly. As Marsh, as an industry, we can do this. Under our program, we try to make it as broad, but we don't want to let everything in. Because, as you said, we don't want to affect the other guys who are doing this regular run-of-the-mill stuff.

That makes a lot of sense. And with that, you talked in your introduction a bit about how the program is forward-thinking. And with everything that I talk about, it's always logistics, but it's always technology-based, too. How has technology pushed that forward-thinking? And where is Marsh utilizing that technology today that even three years ago wasn't in existence?

Well, as I said, our 26-year-old program back in the day, we'd get a request, you had to fax it, you had to typewriter it, you needed to send it to the underwriter who had –

The carrier pigeon takes it across. Somebody sends smoke signals.

Exactly. We had a guy at our office who we would send the stuff out by 11:00. He'd come by a certain spot, grab it from all the departments, and then walk to all the local insurers to sign it and bring it back to us the Thursday. He did the Tuesday, brought it back the Thursday. Can you imagine –

More importantly, "I'm sorry, Jim, we don't need you anymore." "What?" We have this one button that does all of that now.

Exactly.

He's like, "Well, what will I do?" "Literally anything else. We'll find something for you to do. You just have to take walks on your own. We can't give you the steps anymore."

We actually did do that. Because he was a great guy with the company for long, they found other things for him to do while technology came. So like we said, now we have the clients actually enter in the system, generates the search. And now, obviously, the moving forward through Banyan while they're actually booking their transportation. Putting that info for the transporter are able to add the insurance and get the certificate right away. Right?

We're looking at other things when there's potential delays, that type of insurance, to make sure that, "Hey, if you have seasonal goods, and if it's going to be delayed, you're going to be out X. And if it's really delayed, you lose the whole load." We're looking at parametrics. So that can provide that type of protection.

That is something I would have never thought about because I've never been in necessarily a seasonal market. But just to pick something off the top, if I've got sleds and they get there in August, it's not doing me any good. Okay.

And how unique are some of these policies for the shippers and what they're moving? Or is it something like in logistics where you kind of have to have that deep discovery to understand the business? Or you can have a blanket understanding of what everybody's moving and what they need?

Yeah. Because the basic premise is roughly the same. But it's the key components. Understanding the valuation. That, you would need to maybe understand the business. Or if they're selling it. Or how is it coming? Is it going to a warehouse sitting and then going? Or is it coming straight to the end person? In the middle, it's actually bought, sold, and then landed. Those kind of logistics. You need to understand about the logistics.

Okay. I think to what you're saying, though, is that there is a normalcy to it. And I think that that probably speaks to a big level of automation and technology that can be used there. Because it's the over-specialized things that don't translate as well.

And I know that from a Banyan and from a Marsh side, we're talking to each other on programs and integrated partnerships, we have one view of this. Why should a shipper care that Marsh is now in this space, or is bigger in this space, or is connecting with TMS's? Why is that something I should tune in and start listening?

Because we're like every broker, we're all here to help. We at Marsh, we feel we provide good solutions for our customers and our customers' customers. Banyan's customers. And we look to make it right for the customer. If this program doesn't work, but you have an existing relationship with a policy, and you would like to utilize that with Banyan, there's things we can do to make that work so you still get what you want. But we're working and making it smoother.

Because if you're using the Banyan system and you're booking your shipment, now, do you want to do another step to book insurance? No. Let's figure out a way to keep it simple so you're more profitable. You can do your job more efficiently and effectively. And then we can help you and give you the solution you want and/or feel comfortable with.

And you said something there. Let me catch to make sure. If I have a policy already in existence, I can bring that into the fold without having to start from scratch.

Correct.

Okay.

If you have an existing policy, a small broker or small insurer, State Farm, let's just say for some reason, we look it over, we say, "The coverage-wise, it meets what you need. And you want to keep this?" "Yeah. But I'll make you the broker of record, but I would love to keep this policy because my State Farm agent, he's my brother." All right, let's figure it out. And then boom.

Yeah. More like the brother-in-law, and my wife won't let me go walk away from that one. But no. And with that, so let's say they bring their policy and you determine it's not all there. What can you do? What are you going to do in that situation?

We can either tell them, right? And/or work with their existing. If they're like, "No, no, I need to keep it. Is there anything we can do?" We can see 10 where there's a gap be added to cover your policy. And if not, then still provide the other option. And obviously, we can't make anyone come to you as if they don't want to. But at least if we give you knowing where your pitfalls might be, it allows you potentially to avoid them that way.

I know we're never going to bat a thousand. It'd be great. But if I can at least make sure you know where there's the pitfalls, hey, then you'll be safe, hopefully. But you're making at least an informed decision, and that's all I can do, right?

Well, amen. You got to have the consultative approach because nobody wants to be a used car salesman anymore. Nobody wants to work with a used car salesman anymore. And we talked a bit about where the value of why shippers should pay attention. Is there a different reason why this is important for someone that's a 3PL or someone that's that third-party logistics provider? Or is it still just come down to cost? Is there more value I can offer that way? Again, why would I go and bring somebody else into the fold when I'm already a third party?

Right. Well, one of the best things is it is an added-value product, right? It's an added-value service that you are providing to your customers. Your customers are coming to you for a one-stop shop. You're providing that by also providing the insurance and making sure their goods are properly covered.

Think about it. You said, "Yep, the carrier has coverage, and then there's a claim. They're shipping TVs. We know how light TVs are now. Plus, they're already reduced and sometimes excluded." So then you told the guy they had cover, and then you find out it's excluded. Or they had cover, "Here's your $200 for your $10,000 of TVs."

Have a nice day. Yeah.

Exactly. Your customer is not going to be happy. That is a main component. We're doing it simpler. We're doing easily. And then, plus, we can work with you on your other lines of cover to make sure there is no gap, so that this aligns with everything. So you're protected. There's no insurance that is sue-proof. If someone wants to sue, they can always sue. But we can make sure you're properly protected so that court looks and goes, "No. This is dismissed." Right? And you've never had to pay because you have the right insurances in place.

And as someone that's never been a commercial shipper or a 3PL myself, is this something that's always been out there that people have had their own policies for this, or has the assumption of that carrier coverage really been the myth that people lived on?

Yeah, largely the myth. There's been a few. There's, like I said, our program. And there's a few others that have been around for probably 10 years, 10, 15. But it's not widespread. And then the big bigs. The Costcos, the Walmarts, they've always had their own coverage. And that's probably also why. Because once they're not asking before, asking for shippers' interest, people are thinking, "Well, they have their own coverage, they have their coverage, so I guess I'm covered somewhere in between." And it's like everyone else is covered is to cover them and defend them, not you. You always have to make sure you're properly covered.

And that's the other good part of getting this. You're more in control of what's going on as opposed to it being someone else's insurance, because now it's their insurance who has the say, and them who's controlling that narrative. I'm not a control freak, but I do like to have that say. At least know what's going on. Not keep having to send an email and following up. Right?

Yeah. Difference is I'm a control freak. I just need the world to get a little more easier to manage. I'm working on it. But yeah, no. And something comes to mind here is that timing-wise, is when people realize they don't have coverage is probably that one time that something bad has gone. How often is it that you're talking to people after something has gone wrong, and they weren't covered? Versus how do you get people to talk about it before it becomes a problem? Because by nature, we're reactive as human beings.

And it's typically clients who have never had a problem before. If you never had one, you just think the world's going to continue.

God, we're so good at this.

Yeah. Right? We know what we're doing. And that's why, actually, normally when I'm talking or setting up a program or talking to a customer, I always say, "I actually want your first shipment to have a claim." And they look at me like, "Huh?"

Be like, "Don't you put that voodoo on me." Yeah.

And I'm like, "No, because I want just your first one. We show you how good the process is, how quick the claims is, how you get paid, but then you never have a claim again."

But then you never worry about it because you've seen the umbrella. You've seen the rain, and you've seen the umbrella. Okay.

Exactly.

No. And going back to the digitization and technology part, sure, I want to have it in the same screen as anything where I'm moving my shipment. But what other benefits are coming from the technology being involved? Am I getting more immediate documentation or feedback? How does that look? Am I still counting on the mail? Or is someone still faxing something to me, Mike?

Facts. I don't even know if there are any. But no, you're right. That is definitely one of the benefits. When the bill of lading is issued, you can get the certificate evidence in your cover for that transit. That's one of the definite benefits right now. One of the futuristic things is that we're looking at creating dashboards.

Okay.

You'll be able to see and track a number of shipments I've done, number of insured shipments, the number of claims, how it's been paid, what's my top client, what's my top commodity. So, we're looking at those types of things using different dashboards kind of technologies that are out there to be able to kind of give snapshots of what's going on with your program.

And then, again, another futuristic thing is looking at just the claims. This lane seems to keep having claims. So, it's not even necessarily the client, it's a lane, and it's this carrier, right? And then it seems to be when you book on a Friday. We now know what driver it is. So, now we can figure it out. Okay, is it the driver? Are they potentially doing something? Or is it just it's a Friday night? The faster I go, the quicker I'm off for the weekend. Those types of things are going to be futuristic, too, that we're looking to implement.

And is that something that you say looking at this analysis to get deeper and look at what decisions or what are the problem? Is that something that Marsh and their team are doing? Or is this something you're giving the dashboard to the shipper or the 3PL and saying, "You go figure it out?"

No, no, no. This is what we're doing. As I said earlier, we're always looking to get ahead of the curve. And this is one of those things. We want to be able to provide these types of analytics to our customers to make their transportation simpler and easier, more efficient. Because even if you have a claim, even if we pay it right away, all of that, it still prolongs that process. It still makes it, "Oh, okay, now we got to reship. Now we got to do this. Now we got to go do it."

No one wants to have a claim. It's not fun. So, we're trying to help ways to avoid it in the future. And then we're looking at it. We help you that way. We lower your premiums because the claims go down, the premiums go down. So now the costs go down, right? So it's all cyclical. It just kind of we're just trying to make it work more efficiently for everyone involved. And then that's when we're hoping to bat a thousand because we'll have everyone, but everyone's paying lower. And then it's just a happier place.

No. And that makes a lot of sense. It's better to bat a thousand growing up to it versus starting at batting a thousand than dropping down because you can't maintain that kind of average. Talking back to the dashboard here, and some of the technology, and some of that feed of information back and forth. I know from a TMS perspective, I love looking at reports and the dashboard, and this API-driven information that can give me where my shipments are, how they cost. Are you saying I'm going to be able to bring that claims and insurance information right back in? Alongside this, "Hey, am I on time? Am I not on time? Did it get there okay?" Also, when it didn't get there, okay, here's what we got back. Is that all a comprehensive piece?

That's the whole goal. We're hoping working with you guys that we can look at that. We know there's a couple claims providers out there that do that. So we're looking at the dashboard, working with you guys, working with them. And then we come up with a solution to how to display this to our customers, showing them the full gamut of all the information. And teams are going to have to hire people to analyze, but it's going to be great, and it will help their business in the long run because it's just going to give them everything, right?

And don't worry if you don't get the dashboard up in time. My industry is okay with Excels. At about 30 different Excels every day that they run through and live by. They'll love it when it comes. But if in the meantime they've still got an Excel they can rock a pivot table on, they'll be fine.

Yes. Same here. That's how we do some of our stuff, just to get quick solutions out right away while we're working on the bigger stuff.

Yeah. Somebody make it look pretty. In the meantime, i'm going through the black and white grids over here. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly.

And to that point as well, with Excel on one side and the dashboard as this goal, I mean, are you going to start utilizing something like AI? Is Marsh already in that game? This is something I'm talking to – we have a miniseries kind of. We're doing on it. But it keeps popping up. And it'd be hard not to, right? And especially when you start talking about analysis, that's generally where you see it used at the forefront, because I don't have to put an opinion, or a perception, or one of those human elements. I just want to see the trends. I want you to look at the 300 pages of Excel, so I don't have to.

Sure. Yeah, we do. Marsh has an in-house AI, as well as we are able to use other ones. But it's good. Because once we're pumping that data constantly in it, it's AI. It learns, it will understand, and it will be able to provide obviously unbiased reports but in the structure, in the form we want. And that's the key part, right? We're trying to make sure that through data lakes and everything, to get everything, put it in, make sure we have the fields we want, the data to come out, how to structure it, how to look, and then be able to run it like that. And then also make sure it's growable, right?

Because like I said, first, it's going to be just obviously the insurance, then add in the shipping details, then add in the – you know what I mean? So you got to make sure that the components can grow with it. That we just don't build a small lake, and then this is all it can do. Yeah, it's great from an insurance, but it's only a quarter of the picture. We want to make sure we work, that's why we partnered with Bayan, with partners that will help us develop the full picture for the customers, so the customers go, "Oh, this is better than sliced bread. Let's go." Right? That's the goal.

Now, I have to ask. Michael, you're out at Canada right now. Correct? Toronto?

Yeah.

Love the city. And I'll just ask this because maybe it's international, maybe it's worldwide. Insurance has a negative stigma to it. Like, "Damn insurance taking me for – why is this thing?" Why is that? And why is that inaccurate? Why? And I brought up the Canada thing because, maybe in Canada, you guys are like, "Nope. Insurance is cool. My bartender is my buddy, and then my insurance agent is my next best friends." Here, we're like, "I don't want to talk to that guy. He sold me insurance. If a tree falls on my house, I'll call him if I have to. But that's it."

Yeah. And that's what the – it is. I think we're grouped in with lawyers. If you like a lawyer, then the lawyer is on your side doing what you need, but you don't like a lawyer in general, right? And I think we get into that because it's just the –

It's the fine print, the litigation. Yeah.

Exactly. Right?

There's there could be sympathy and empathy. But if it's written down a certain way, it doesn't matter how much you can understand. That's the way it is.

Right. And that's where I think our paths cross, and that's why it's not – and it's hard, too. It's also like we talked about with the perception of the carriers covering your goods. If you have a perception, regardless if it's right or wrong [inaudible 0:35:37]. If they don't, the carrier is not going to say it's not us. They're going to say it's my insurance. They're not paying. And then you go, "Ah, damn insurance." Right?

And then they're not going to say, "No, you're an idiot. You didn't read the terms and conditions." They're going to say, "My insurance is not because you didn't follow the terms and conditions." Right? It's a different conversation. You blame the insurance. You know what? I tell my clients always, "Blame me. I rather you blame me." They might not use the Mars product, but they'll keep using you. And you're my client. So, I want my client happy as opposed to me throwing you under the bus. Because the client's probably still going to leave with us both then, right?

That's part of mine. I am your shield as well as your sword, right? And I have to know when to pivot, when to parry, right? And that's part of our role as being a broker. And that's why we say always use a broker because that's what we're – part of our job is to help and protect our client, and to protect their client.

that's well said. And I always like it when a sword and shield is brought into any conversation, and that's just the nerd in me. But with where you're at with technology and where Marsh is and where they've been for as long as it is, and with the integration to Banyan, there's a little call out there, and we love that, what is the future for insurance? Because it's strange to even say that, because I don't know if this is my perception. Insurance is not a sexy technological thing. There's been it for a long time, probably since the first time somebody had a piece of paper that says, "Yeah, give me five bucks. And if this doesn't go right, I'll pay it out." But where do you keep evolving? Or is it just you make sure that as the world keeps evolving, you've still got the ledger behind it?

Both, right? Definitely have to make sure the ledger's behind the world because it will keep the world spinning. But at the same point, I think insurance is always trying to figure out, like I said, what's coming up ahead to try to get ahead. And the goal obviously is to make sure everything is always insured.

What level it's at, whether it's through a TMS, through a freight forward, or through the carrier, or –

My 2011 Ford Fusion that I'm driving to the ground doesn't need the same insurance as the the 300-foot mega yacht that I wish I had. Right?

Correct. And it's pricing it, right? Your Ford, the body of it doesn't need the insurance. But you, in the event of you hit someone, needs the insurance, right?

There's a lot of nuance there.

Yeah. It's always something, right? There's got to be a connection, and that's what we're always trying. That's why I said insurance is always going to be a part of everything. It's recession-proofish, and that's what we need in there. And it's just, though, how do we make it simpler and easier, more efficient for the customers, right? How do we make it that they understand it, too, right? Because that's also a key. Making sure they understand it, which takes away a lot more of the perceptions and the unknown. The more clients understand and get this, this is why I'm doing the podcast, it makes it easier long run. But the more they stick to unknowns and perceptions, that's what makes it –

The more you're going to get burned.

Exactly.

And to be biased here, and I'm not. This is a general perception just from this call. This sounds like an easy process to find out if it's something that's going to fit. It doesn't sound like I have to go through and go through a hundred years of my backlog of shipments, right? It sounds like a conversation piece. What is entailed if someone wants to find out if they should be either bringing their policy over to Marsh to come on to a digital platform like Banyan or their TMS, or even look for a brand new one? How painful? And what do the steps look like?

Typically, it's not too painful. It will depend, though, if – I'm not talking about Mars, but the broker you may be looking at, if they have the expertise. If they do not have the expertise, it will be a difficult conversation. They won't know where to start, what to look at, so on and so forth. If it's Marsh or one of our leading competitors who have the expertise, it's going to the right people, getting them to have that open conversation, figure out what it is you're looking to do. Figuring out does your TMS provider enable that ability, like Banyan does. And if they do, then you can maybe take the next step. If they don't, then move to Banyan because we can do that.

It's a great answer. No. And it it really feels – and it's funny to say with insurance that you can't really – it's kind of a – you can't get burned by looking to see. There's no harm in seeing if there's better coverage out there. It's not like shopping around is going to hit your credit score.

100%. And that's why you see for personal lines, the auto house, they have all those apps, lemonade and stuff like that, where you can do that shop. You go to Google, and it's very easy, right?

I just call Shaq up, and he in the general, he makes me Papa John's pizza, and then he gets me –

Exactly. That's what they need to do now. Every time you book a policy, you get a Papa John's pizza. Boom. Yes. You know how many more people would just start doing that? Or just, "Here's a coupon if you get a quote on the general." And then here's your pizza.

Oh my god. Cross-industry pollination right here. We got this.

Exactly. Like I said, I am just here to help the people. Obviously, we would like them to go through us. But in the end, just make sure you're properly insured. Make sure you properly know what's going on, whether it is through the carrier or through a different policy. But you have to know.

There's no more being an ostrich and hiding your head in the sand. You have to be able to know because everything is available. And just like the apps on your phone, the terms and conditions are there. It’s daunting. So, if you don't want to read it, you have to find where it is. Someone you can trust, like Banyan, that has done the research for you that can help and guide with you, and can put you in touch with brokers who are willing to explain it to you to make sure your property covered.

Well said. Well said. And just so we don't end on way too polished of a note here, I got to ask. You said you did musicians and churches. And you've been doing this for a long time. I got two questions. A, what's a program that you don't insure right now that you wish you did? And what is the craziest policy or just situation that went down that you were involved in? Obviously, you don't have to give details, but I want the broad strokes.

No, broad strokes. Of course. In terms of policy program, I'm not sure. Because you know what? I'm liking what I'm doing. It is actually really enjoyable, this growth, this connectivity, this evolution in the digital working with clients like yourself, Banyan. I'm loving this part. Went out to Cleveland, went out to Atlanta, that's fun stuff, right?

It is.

So, that. Doing what I'm doing right now, I'm perfectly happy with.

My crazy story, though, was we had an industry where they believed they did not have to pay premium because it was God's work. They didn't want to pay premium, but were hoping that the insurer would cover any and everything that would go wrong. And when some of the things were very, very, very old going apart, that too should be covered. That's where I'm saying it's hard beating those type of perceptions. And I understand it is important work. But at the same, you can't get nothing for free, as I said earlier.

Yeah, you're like it's either you keep going with that and keep praying to that insurance provider in the sky, or we put something on paper here. Yeah.

Correct.

No. I could see that being a tough argument and a tough room to talk to.

It wasn't, it wasn't. Great with people. But it was just – they had their belief. And I'm not going to argue anyone's belief. But at the same, the insurers definitely have a different belief, and they're just not going to connect.

Now, that's a perfect thing to end on, Mike. I'm going to say right here. We'll put it – no matter what you believe, probably get some insurance on top of it, too. Just in case.

Just in case.

That's what insurance is. It's just in case.

Yeah. Exactly. Hey, the guy might jump down and take care of it for you. But if he isn't, Marsh has got your back, you know? Exactly. No. And I always offer this as the last few minutes, and you might have said it already, but either as Michael Wilson, as someone that's been in insurance for a long time, or someone that's talking to people in logistics, here's my soapbox. What's your message? What's your thing to the world? Here you go.

Oh, I just say just look into everything. Talk to your broker. We can help. We're here to help. We're not here to mess you over. We do want to help you. We are here to make sure you have the right stuff in place. Whether it's me, whether it's Marsh, or someone else. But do have conversations. Just think of your mortgage broker. Think of anyone else in that kind of role doing something else. That's what we're here to do to help you.

That's awesome, Michael. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'll tell anybody that's listening, I've had some opportunity to hang out with Michael down in Cleveland, tropical downtown Cleveland, of course. And his great people. Met a few of the other Marsh people, and they're excellent. And very much, if it's good for you, it's good for them. And much like what we do at Banyan here, we find a win-win.

But Michael, thank you for the insight. Thank you for talking about something that I couldn't even pretend to be an expert on. And I could pretend pretty hard. But thank you so much for your time, Mike.

Thanks for having me, guys. Take care.

And for everybody watching out there, this has been another Banyan Technology's Tire Track podcast. Make sure to subscribe, engage, tell us what you like, tell us what you don't, tell us how nice my hair is, but make sure you tell us something. Thanks, everybody. You guys have a great one. And we'll see you for the next one. Thank you.